Special Episode: Ingrid Dynna & David Quist- NoMy
Welcome to the future of protein production podcast. In this series, we will explore the technological advancements that are shaping alternative proteins from cultured meats to plant based proteins. We will talk to experts and innovators who are working towards a more sustainable, efficient, and kind protein production system. Join us as we dive into the exciting possibilities and challenges of the alternative protein production industry in the years to come.
Speaker 2:Welcome to this Protein Production Technology International Exclusive. I'm joined today by Ingrid Dina and David Andrew Quist from Norwegian Mycelium or Nommi. Before we get started on the company and what you guys do, it's very nice it's nice to learn a bit about you. So Ingrid, can I start with you? What's been your own individual journey into the food tech sector?
Speaker 3:So I actually started my career in big tech, and I've spent almost 15 years at Google and YouTube. Okay. But I think there's a lot of relevant and, like, synergies and things to bring into the startup world. And just to name a few, the innovation mindset, the pace, building strong culture and teams, and the focus on technology. And I knew that after after Google, I really wanted to work with climate technology.
Speaker 3:And when I was introduced to David, I was quickly convinced that the world of fungi is a very exciting area to go into.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. And, David, yourself?
Speaker 4:Yeah. So, I'm trained as a fungal biologist, a mushroom scientist, so I've been working with food over my entire career. A big chunk of it actually has been in food system sustainability, both on the technical side, but also on the policy side. So I spent a lot of my career really focused on food. I took a pause from the politics side of things and opened my own restaurant.
Speaker 4:So I'm also a restauranteur and developed a food concept using fungi and fermentation, in the core of our dishes. So, been both a a food scientist, but also a a food actor, on on a on a very, very local level.
Speaker 2:So so very different backgrounds for both of you, but, together, it's the perfect cocktail for this nascent food tech industry. So can you give us a brief summary of, Nommie? How did it come to be?
Speaker 4:Yeah. That's that's a great question. I mean, again, as I said, fungi has been a part of my, my training and my history. You know, fungi is is an area of life that is really going through a zeitgeist, the last years and exploring fermentation, how it can transform foods, particularly on the sustainability side. And this is something that the restaurant focused on quite a bit using fermentation to create delicious, ingredients and using all of the animal or plant from a sustainability standpoint.
Speaker 4:And it really just got thinking. And we were using mycelium in our dishes and so forth, and mycoproteins. And we thought, you know, what if we could use this technology? We're using it to feed milli to feed 100 of people, but what if we could use to feed 1,000,000? And that was really the genesis of Nomi.
Speaker 4:So, you know, here's this, you know, fungus scientist talking a big game about fungi. And I was able to meet this, Ingrid, this, you know, the Google executive, and
Speaker 3:people are like, okay.
Speaker 4:A Google executive and a mushroom scientist is starting a company. Alright. Let's see what's gonna happen here. So it's been a a great journey so far. We're just getting started.
Speaker 4:We just did a technology shift about 18 months ago. So, really kind of set our current pathway. So even though we've been around for about 3 years since 2020, really, what we've been working on focused has only been the last, say, 18 months, in the area of, using mycoproteins particularly for feed ingredients here in Norway.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:Now we're gonna come on to some of the milestones. It's been a big year for you. I know there was a big investment, announcement quite recently. I mean, what are your key goals for 2024?
Speaker 3:We have something really exciting happening at the beginning of next year, 2024, and that is establishing our pilot facility here in Oslo. So that's a really big step for for us moving from labs to pilot scale where we can demonstrate the scalability of our product. The second thing we'll be focusing on is is, getting proof that our products are functioning in feed. So we're doing feed trials. And the third one I'd like to mention is around collaboration.
Speaker 3:So we're putting a lot of focus on on partnerships. We have a partner innovation model, where the focus is to build those relationships across the value chain. So from side stream producers to end customers, but also research institutes and scale up partnerships. Scale up partnerships.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. We're gonna talk now about sorry. Go on, Ingrid.
Speaker 3:Yes. So that's the focus for 2024.
Speaker 2:Okay. Lots of exciting things happen. And we're we're gonna talk now about the use of, sustainable feedstocks and everything you do there is it's it's about the circular economy. So let's talk about those feedstocks in the fermentation process. I mean, how do you assess, the environmental impact of different feedstock options?
Speaker 4:Yeah. So, I mean, as Ingrid mentioned, I mean, Nomi's focus is to utilize, large volume but low value, at least how they're valorized today, side streams or byproducts from the food industry. So why side streams? I mean, this is a massive amount of, nutrient dense, process waters and side streams that are literally being undervalued or being thrown away today. So from a waste standpoint, this is this is something we need to address.
Speaker 4:So definitely on assessing the feedstock, it's an environmental impact that we can have. And so we look at what matches well with the fungi that we work with, the processes that we work with so we can create a, a good process with it. The other side of it is in the economic side. I mean, up to 40% of the input costs can be from the feedstock. So this allows us to be very competitive in terms of the types of products that we can deliver.
Speaker 4:And particularly with our focus on feeds, it's it's a very price sensitive market. This allows us to be, best in class comparing to, say, other alternative proteins. But but beyond that, Nick, I mean, our model, as as Indi mentioned, is a partnership based model. So we go into specific facilities and look at how their process is set up. How could we could design the system to use those side streams before they become waste to keep them in a food grade standing and be able to save water, be able to save energy, be able to recycle some of those water and and and, in effect, lead, to a situation where we can help decarbonize this industry and and solve 2 way 2 problems with one solution.
Speaker 4:Waste problem by using these side streams, getting more out of the system, and a feed or a food sufficiency problem by able to create more, delicious and nutritious ingredients from from fungi.
Speaker 3:Mhmm. I mean,
Speaker 2:what are some of the key considerations when choosing between those, different feedstock options for for any specific fermentation process?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, a lot of it has to come down down to, what the cost and what the scale of those feedstocks are, how how variable those feedstocks are. If they're very variable, it presents a challenge, which we're addressing, in how we're developing our processes because we need to have a consistent product quality out the backside. So Nomi is developing new technologies and new approaches to be able to deal with that variability, to be able to take these side streams, which typically have not been valorized for that for for that reason and be able to make valuable consistent products out the other end.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I mean, there's a tremendous amount of food waste in the food sector, cabins of various ends of the, the value chain itself. So circular economy, is an important factor. Now in what ways does the process, do you guys are utilizing contribute to that circular economy in food and feed?
Speaker 3:So David, talked a little bit about how we work with food industry companies in valorizing their side streams, and I've been surprised how big of a problem that is. And, these companies are now seeking partners and seeking solutions, to get rid of this problem. So it's a very good timing for us to go in and and talk to these companies. And then fermentation, as David has mentioned as well, is is just have, like, this amazing capability. So being able to transform these side streams into high value products.
Speaker 3:So we're really helping that industry, solve a very, very big problem.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Could you elaborate oh, sorry. Go on, Ingrid.
Speaker 3:Yeah. That's that's it.
Speaker 2:Could you elaborate on any of those, strategies, those innovative strategies that you're employing to ensure that closed loop system or or minimize waste, in the supply chain for alternative proteins companies?
Speaker 4:Again, as we focus on a partnership based model, we're able to you know, the ultimate situation that we we seek out is one where our feedstock suppliers are also our end our end users. So this allows us a really tight closed loop system, to be able to help modify their processes, design waste out of the production system, be able to save, in various areas, and then be able to transform that that's those side streams into a high value product that can be brought back into their system. So the idea of a collocated facility to keep these lubes tight is where we can have the most sustainability and economic impact in what we're building. And so Nomi's focuses these partnership based models to be able to create these systems at the at the factory level and then scale that out or scale that up at that factory and scale it out into other factories with similar problems around the world.
Speaker 2:Now you're you're tackling I know you're you're you're looking at human food, but you're you're tackling, feed, aquafeed, primarily at the start. Now the aquafeed industry itself faces several challenges, impacting sustainability, efficiency, and overall growth. In what ways is Nomi looking to address these challenges with your solution and model?
Speaker 3:So mainly by providing, an alternative feed ingredient. So, Nick, did you know that nearly 80% of the greenhouse gas emissions from aquafeed? No. From aquaculture comes from the feed. Right.
Speaker 3:It's just it's just a crazy number. So this is actually made the Norwegian government, put a social mission to Norway in the next, say, 10 years, on the, on pushing on developing more locally produced sustainable, feed ingredients. So this is a very big focus for Norway, and I expect other countries to start having this focus as well because this is a global problem. Mhmm. And this is where we come in, with our circular and scalable solutions.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Now Aquafeed traditionally contains fish meal, fish oil sourced from wild caught fish.
Speaker 3:I
Speaker 2:mean, what are your thoughts on the medium and long term prospects for this particular sector and and hence the future demand for your sustainable cost effective alternatives?
Speaker 4:Yeah. You know, species like salmon require a lot of protein, high quality protein. And, traditionally, this has come from fish meal, also, and now it's been replaced, in part by soy because of the volumes at play. It just is massive volumes that these industries need, in order to, in order to produce the nutrition necessary. So neither of these, fish meal or soy, is considered to be a sustainable long term, option given we have overfished, the oceans in search of fish meal.
Speaker 4:And, the expansion of soy is putting pressure on biodiversity, rainforest, etcetera, where they're being grown. So we need to find these alternatives. We need ones that are scalable, and can produce at a price point and a consistency that the, the industry demands. So that's really where we're focusing our energy. Mycoproteins, the research today is showing that it it is a high quality protein, has the amino acid balance necessary.
Speaker 4:We call it a protein with benefits, because actually it has beta glucans in its cell wall, which can, can in part, health benefits in the form of, being an immunostimulant. So it has a number of features that research is showing can replace fish meal to a certain extent and definitely soy, as a high quality but low cost at scale, ingredient.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Now optimizing feed efficiency is also essential to reduce the feed conversion ratio. So do you have any stats about the Nomi solution in terms of FCR?
Speaker 4:Yeah. It's early days for mycoproteins. The research that's being done to date, particularly on rainbow trout and salmon, which are key species, here in Norway, where circular RAS systems here in the Nordics are heavily focused on on, rainbow trout. And the FCR, the the feed conversion ratios are showing they're showing an improved feed conversion ratio over conventional proteins by substituting with mycoproteins. So impacts on growth, digestibility.
Speaker 4:And as I mentioned, fish health, which translates into better fish livelihoods, it's hitting on all the key metrics and showing great promise is what we're we're really excited to be able to to deliver this and and actually do something, not only again for sustainability, but also for fish health, which is a massive issue in aquaculture.
Speaker 2:Yeah. I mean, you've talked about the costs as well already, but, the cost for feed ingredients significantly significantly impact the the economics of agriculture. So in what ways is is your NOMI process more cost effective?
Speaker 3:So the cost you're right, Nick. The cost is, affecting it significantly, and and that's still gonna be a focus for feed feed producers and and fish producers. Having said that, they're also on the lookout for more sustainable options. So there we see a willingness to pay slightly more for a sustainable ingredient. And we also think there will, a potential gap will be bridged with future tax and and incentive schemes.
Speaker 3:Having said that, we're working towards an extremely cost effective process. We are competing against products that have existed for, a very long time, and that have been optimized in terms of cost effectiveness. But we think with by using fermentation, an extremely scalable approach, and that can be done locally as well. So you remove kind of all the transport logistics, that will help us, reach or at least be close to to price parity, with conventional products.
Speaker 4:To to build on that, Nick, I mean, the other beautiful thing about working with fungi is that we basically let nature do what nature does. Right? Transform nutrients into into biomass. And this biomass, we use high protein already approved, strains, to be able to make our our feed ingredients. So, essentially, we can offer a solution in which have very low cost, unit operations, low low energy unit operations compared to the alternatives on the market to be able to deliver a product at the lowest price point possible.
Speaker 4:So this really gives us a comparative advantage to other alternative ingredients that require higher degrees of preprocessing and post processing to make a viable and high quality product. We just let fungi do what it does, and tap into that natural, diversity, to be able to to deliver the high quality ingredients that the the industry needs.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Now we're gonna move on to, what, Ingrid, described as the valley of death, which I love. It's scaling and capital. 2 huge challenges for any company in this sector. So, Amit, how did the economics and you you might not know this yet given you haven't moved to the next scale, but how did the economics of fermentation change when using sustainable feedstocks on a larger scale?
Speaker 2:I guess you'll find that out when you move to that bigger pilot next year.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, again, it's a game changer to be able to tap into these sustainable feed stocks. I mean, the the easy approach would have been just to use sugar. Right? I mean, that's what a number of companies do in fermentation, because you're going to be able to hit the highest productivity.
Speaker 4:But, you know, Nomi made the choice. We wanna have both market and environmental impact in what we do. So we're investing in the research, investing in novel strategies to be able to tap into these feedstocks, to deliver, again, both on price, but also on environment, which is, these two very important metrics if we're going to develop and and and and make a more sustainable, food system for the future. So it's really focusing on the feedstock side of things to be able to tap into these and be able to make a consistent product, which is where we're spending a tremendous amount of energy so we can deliver the solutions needed for the future.
Speaker 3:Mhmm.
Speaker 2:I'm just interested to know, what's your take on the current investment based landscape? I mean, given the challenges, how can start ups attract the cash needed to get off the ground?
Speaker 3:I would like if I I said it will be easy right now, to get investment. It's been it's been a challenging year, I think, for for a lot of startups, but also for investors, attracting investments to their funds. Mhmm. So I think as a start up, you need to be, extremely focused on the things that investors need to see to take take down the risk. They're much more cautious right now.
Speaker 3:They're sitting more on the fence waiting, to see what happens. So that means you need to be an even stronger case, than you probably would have, just a year or 2 ago. So so I think for startups, looking for funds right now, I think having, having the proof points to to what the market is and having commitments from customers in the market, I think that's that's key. Also an extremely strong plan in terms of scalability and how you're gonna get there. Do you have the right team in place and the right partners?
Speaker 3:So I think just, like, painting an extremely compelling, picture, for investors and and having those proof points to show that the market is there. This is a significant problem that needs your solution. Uh-huh. I think that's that's the core.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And so where are you guys in terms of funding? I know we we published a a a news announcement recently on our website about, I think it was a grant or from Norwegian government.
Speaker 3:That's correct. So things are coming coming together nicely right now. So we just closed our what we call our seed plus round, where we had some of our existing investors doing follow on, but we also attracted a few, few very strong investors, on top of that. And in addition, we got a grant from the research council that you're referring to, as well as Innovation Norway. So the round ended up being being very good for us.
Speaker 3:And that gives us a little bit of space to be able to work on our scale up at the beginning of 2024, before we start preparing for our series a, that we're expecting to kick off at the end of 2024. Mhmm. So I do not have have a big break. But
Speaker 2:Alright. Good luck with, all of those future wins. I'm sure there will be a win, and we know there's been a lot of, attention for the fermentation technologies, especially even in the, current economic climate. So, another big challenge for companies in the alternative protein sector is regulations. Now in terms of regulations, do you have any headaches when it comes to approvals for your products?
Speaker 2:I mean, and how do you discern the challenges between the feed and the food sector, the human food sector?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, that's a great question. I mean, you know, what we what we face and what I think other companies are looking at side stream faces is the regulatory environment was not set. It was set up for a linear food system, not a circular one. And so there's a lot of work to be done to create the scientific knowledge and do the assessments in order to be able to modify the regulations, in a safe way, again, with scientific knowledge for circular solutions to be able to be utilized.
Speaker 4:So this is again about side streams. If they're class how they're classified, how they can be used, how you keep them in food or feed grade status. So there's a number of challenges there. I mean, Nomi's approach is looking at side streams, yes, but also feeds. So there there is a regulatory environment, but, we it allows us to tap into a broader range of side streams, and have a go to market strategy that has less, hurdles in front of it.
Speaker 4:We also need to test and show the performance, of our product, but, it's, you know, a bulk, a bulk ingredient that we can deliver at scale. So we don't need to convince as opposed to food. We don't have to look at perhaps, novel food, regulations, which is a significant hurdle, and, you know, convincing an individual consumers. It's very much, you know, you have to look at sales and distribution and so forth. So it's a much easier play, focusing on feeds.
Speaker 4:And the other thing is just where we are located in the world. I mean, we this is a massive industry here in Norway that wants to, grow by 5 times in the 30 years. So the need for proteins and the impact that we can have by delivering sustainable mycoproteins to the industry is is much larger. The other side of it is strains. So fungi is very exciting, group of organisms to work with because of their metabolic and enzymatic diversity, the types of products we can work with.
Speaker 4:But right now, there's a very few strains that are approved, for food or feed usage. That is starting to change, but it takes time to develop the knowledge and to go through the regulatory environment, which is therefore a very good reason, to but we need to create the knowledge to be able to utilize a broader range of strains. And then it's just such an exciting field to work with. We're just scratching the surface of what fungi can deliver. So, we're actually going to be looking further into how to new strains, with new potentialities moving forward.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. It's yeah. Micro proteins are fascinating. So what market trends or consumer insights are driving the adoption of these products, do you think? Yeah.
Speaker 4:If I could take take a stab at that. I mean, you you see a number of different things. I mean, it is sustainability to certain amount. It's health clean labels, you know, the ability to be able to deliver a product, that doesn't go through a lot of processing, be able to deliver on taste and texture. I think other types of fermentation coming in for flavorings.
Speaker 4:I think there's a number of ways fermentation, biomass, and other types of ferment traditional fermentation could be combined to make really amazing products. But, you know, consumers are are are are flipping over the label, and they're reading it, and they're interested in health. Of course, they're price conscious as well. But they also have high demands, that haven't been met, in the plant based field for taste and and, and and texture. So we're hoping and we think that my, mycoproteins can deliver on that.
Speaker 4:And there's the also functionality. Myco, mycelium based ingredients also have good gelling, foaming, emulsifying properties, and can replace other types of animal based ingredients, in new types of foods going forward. So there's a lot of exciting research being done and a lot of exciting, research that needs to be done to show the full potential of of mycoproteins.
Speaker 2:I mean, David, you're clearly mister fungi. Are there any potential novel applications or product developments envisioned for mycoproteins beyond that current scope?
Speaker 4:Abs absolutely. We're working on a few of them that I can't share with you now, but, hopefully, maybe in the future. But there's a lot of exciting areas, that's going to, I think, really impact nutrition in in a big way. Mhmm.
Speaker 2:And how do you anticipate microproteins impacting the overall landscape of alternative proteins? I'm gonna go In the food industry.
Speaker 4:On the food in the food industry. Yeah. I mean, look, look at the pioneer corn, in the UK. They have been around for, what, 30 30 plus for 40 years. And they are one of, if not, Europe's largest, you know, plant based, producer with an array of different types of products.
Speaker 4:They've showed the flexibility and the the versatility of mycoproteins. And, you know, there will be more corns, companies like corn coming to be able to deliver at massive scales the kinds of, ingredients and, foods that we're gonna need to be able to shift to more sustainable food system. So I think that we're just getting at the beginning of it as we're seeing new corn companies. Maybe, you know, me will be one of those. Right now, we're focused on feeds.
Speaker 4:That's going to be able to deliver at scale and has already proven a scalable technology, moving forward. So I I think that we're just getting started with micro proteins, and corn has been, you know, a a very successful pioneer, leading the way.
Speaker 2:I'm just wondering. Obviously, you probably pay close attention to what else is happening in the industry. I mean, what particular areas excite you that, you know, aren't your core focus?
Speaker 4:Yeah. I would say I mean, as the alternate protein, particularly around fermentation, matures, you're seeing a lot of segmentation in the industry. You're seeing not companies that are that are offering end to end solutions, or focused on product development, but companies like Nomi that are very good and very focused on process development to be able to tap into new new, processes, new side streams, but also those that are offering new bioreactor solutions, scale up solutions, new strains, these kinds of different, you know, so called pick and shovel, portions of the value chain. There's a lot of exciting, work being done in there that's gonna really help, companies to be able to innovate in fermentation to be via biomass, but also precision fermentation so that we can, we can have that impact, in the market that, you know, that really is the potential. You see some of these charts, Nick, of, like, the hype curve, and you see biomass fermentation sitting, you know, right getting up near the peak of that.
Speaker 4:It's time for biomass fermentation and for fermentation to deliver. It'll be interesting to see how this shakes out moving forward, but, we really, feel that biomass fermentation is gonna be one of those areas, that's going to deliver. And with these picks and shovels, companies coming to help enable that, that shift using fermentation, it's super exciting.
Speaker 2:Mhmm. Ingrid, you know, who are the Googles of this, food tech sector? What are what are the technologies that, excite you?
Speaker 3:That's a very good question. If you're at the Googles, I think that's,
Speaker 4:No meat.
Speaker 3:That's no meat. Right answer. I don't know any of the other food tech companies having Google ex Google employees employed, so I think that must be us, Nick.
Speaker 2:Great answer. And, finally, both of you, how do you foresee this market evolving?
Speaker 4:Well, I feel on on foods, particularly.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah. I mean, I it's it's I wish I we wish we had the crystal ball. Right? It's it's difficult to say. What what I hope to see is that we see the investments in infrastructure, the capital going into the fermentation space in general.
Speaker 4:That's gonna be required to actually do this. I mean, you see how many fermentation companies. There isn't the fermentation capacity for all these companies to succeed. So there needs to be a massive influx in capital that's going to be in infrastructure development in order for the industry to flourish. And and we wanna see we wanna see the industry flourish beyond Nomi.
Speaker 4:We're gonna need to do this at scale. We're gonna need a lot of, similar companies to be able to make that impact. So I think that's where if we have the capital, I think that we're going to see that impact made. But the the crystal ball is difficult to say, but is that capital going to flow, and where is it going to flow from? Is it gonna come from the private sector?
Speaker 4:Is it gonna come from, the public sector supporting this, the shift? That's it's early days to say. They're both pointing fingers at each other right right now, so it's just like, you know, you take it. No. You take it.
Speaker 4:So we're looking into both possible, ways of funding, what we're building. We see good opportunities in both. But that's really what's gonna determine, how successful the industry is going to be is that is that infrastructure development.
Speaker 2:Ingrid, any predictions?
Speaker 3:Yeah. No. Agreed to that in terms of capital infrastructure. I think the health aspects of plant based and alternative products is gonna be very important as well. Mhmm.
Speaker 3:So we need not just plant based products out there, but they need to be really healthy. So there's been quite a lot of criticism around the processing of of plant based products. So I think they need to be both sustainable and nutritious and tasting good tasting as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Taste is very, very important.
Speaker 4:And the last thing I'll say is competence, Nick. I mean, we need more, you know, fungus geeks. The world needs more fungus geeks if we're gonna make the shift. We need more fermentation scientists, prob bioprocess engineers. We need to be, you know, training the next generation that's going to be able to, to take this to the next level.
Speaker 4:So we're very focused on that, on education and training. We have, you know, we have interns coming in, doing projects and so forth, trying to get the future, fermentation scientists and bioengineers that that the industry is going to need. So competence is gonna be a a big the a big a big factor that's going to determine, how we can how we can do things at scale.
Speaker 3:And you need more ex Googlers to go into food and technology.
Speaker 4:And ex Googlers. There you go. Good.
Speaker 2:I used to say, though, there are challenges challenges everywhere from from from regulations to consumer acceptance to I mean, David, you mentioned that the bioreactor bottleneck. I I heard recently that if you, switched a 100% of bioreactor capacity in the pharma sector to the production of meat, there wouldn't be enough to feed the US, for half a day. So it's an enormous challenge. How do you guys sleep at night with all of these challenges?
Speaker 3:We don't sleep, do we? Yeah.
Speaker 4:In Ingrid is now with this investment round closed, Ingvie gets to sleep for a few weeks. Yep. We're starting again. Definitely just a few weeks.
Speaker 2:Just notes. Look, guys. Thank you very much for your time. It's been fascinating speaking with you. And, yeah, we hope to follow on your progress and, report some more milestones in 2024.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Thanks, Nick.
Speaker 3:Thank you, Nick. Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to the future of protein production podcast. We hope you gained valuable insights and knowledge about the innovative technologies and practices that are transforming the way we produce protein. Don't forget to subscribe to protein production technology international, our multimedia magazine, and follow us on social media to stay up to date with the latest news and updates. Stay tuned for more exciting episodes.
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